Transcript of podcast interview with Stephen A. Diamond, PhD, by Douglas Eby.

Douglas Eby: Dr. Stephen A. Diamond is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist in private practice, and a member of the Approved Panel of Psychiatrists and Psychologists for the Criminal Division of the Los Angeles County Superior Court.

A former pupil and protege of Dr. Rollo May, Dr. Diamond sees many creative individuals, including members of the Writers Guild and the Screen Actors Guild.

He is the author of the book, "Anger, Madness and the Daimonic: The Psychological Genesis of Violence, Evil and Creativity". And, he contributed chapters to the best-selling anthology, "Meeting the Shadow", as well as the books, "Spirituality and Psychological Health", "Forensic Psychology: Influences of Evil", and the forthcoming "Encyclopedia of Psychology and Religion".

Dr. Diamond teaches psychology at two local graduate schools, and currently writes a weekly blog for Psychology Today. He's also working on a new book, tentatively titled, "Secrets of Psychotherapy: Restoring the Soul".

Hello, Dr. Diamond.

Stephen Diamond: Hello.

Douglas Eby: In the brief forward to your book, "Anger, Madness and the Daimonic", psychologist Rollo May defines the classic Greek conception of the 'daimonic', or darker side of our being, noting that "the 'daimonic', unlike the 'demonic', which is merely destructive, is as much concerned with creativity as with negative reactions."

You've said that "creativity can be simplistically defined as the constructive expression of the daimonic. When the artist gives voice to his or her darkest impulses, in his or her work, the destructive impact is minimized, and the daimonic energy positively informs the work."

There have been a number of actors who've shown a dark and violent side, including Christian Bale starring as Batman, and just recently arrested for assault. You've mentioned some actors like Brando, Pacino, DeNiro and Daniel Day Lewis. How are they examples of anger and the 'daimonic'?

Stephen Diamond: Well, I don't know any of these actors personally; let me start by saying that. But, clearly these are passionate people - passionate men in this case - who have access to their own rage. And, generally speaking, I have studied creative artists, and one of the things that I've found in looking at their lives, in almost every case - prominent artist Jackson Pollack, Beethoven, we'll talk about a little bit more, novelist Richard Wright, Picasso - in almost every case, these are angry individuals.

They have a great deal of anger and rage for various reasons based on the kinds of things that have happened to them in life, or didn't happen to them in life. And yet, they were able to utilize their rage, and to some extent - and some more successfully than others - really channel it into their creative work. And, I think that's what we see in the film actors that you just named.

I don't know really anything about Christian Bale. But, it certainly sounds like he's someone who has some of his own anger issues, if you will. In fact, I think I did read something about him being prone to temper tantrums, and has always been prone to temper tantrums. And so, he sounds like your prototypical, temperamental artist. Literally, temperamental.

Douglas Eby: So, that really is a sign of being susceptible to anger in your personality.

Stephen Diamond: Temper tantrums? Very much so. In my view, temper tantrums are an outburst. They're a mini-possession by the 'daimonic'. When we talk about the 'daimonic', one of the things we're talking about is anger or rage.

And, by definition the 'daimonic' has the power to take over the whole person, and to possess the personality, at least temporarily. And, that kind of possession can be quite destructive, and sometimes it can be actually creative.

But, it sounds like with Christian Bale, his anger often gets the best of him, and comes out sometimes in inappropriate or immature ways. But, that may also be what gives him an edge as an actor, or one of the things that gives him an edge.

Douglas Eby: You've just referred to possession and have talked before about creativity, or the creative process as entering into a state of "benevolent possession". You've said, "It's a sort of trance the artist allows herself or himself to be swept up in a raging torrent of primordial images, ideas, intuitions and emotions, emanating from the daimonic or unconscious."

So, you're saying that anger or rage also lives in the same territory, so to speak?

Stephen Diamond: Yes, it is the same territory. Again, the concept of the 'daimonic' is that anger and rage and creativity come from exactly the same place, the same source in the human psyche. Actually Rollo May cited that source as being simply human potentiality.

Douglas Eby: So, with people that you see, particularly creative people, do you as a therapist help them navigate this terrain safely?

Stephen Diamond: Well, we try. This is what we try to do because it is a struggle for the creative person. Most people try to steer clear of the daimonic as much as possible. Most people really repress their anger and rage in our culture.

An artist, by definition, needs to immerse himself or herself in the unconscious, and needs to be receptive to the unconscious. And, when we talk about the unconscious, we're also talking about what May called the 'daimonic', what Jung called the 'Shadow', and also what Freud called the 'Id'.

There needs to be contact with this aspect of human existence, instinct, emotion and passion. And, the key is to be able to do something productive with it.

 But, it's always a dangerous proposition because to immerse oneself in it, to open oneself up to it, is also opening oneself up to the possibility of destructiveness. Again, the daimonic is by definition both creative and destructive at the same time. So, the same energies that can be used and redirected and channeled into creative work and creative activity can also be quite destructive in a person's life.

Again, I talked about the example that I love, and that's the creative process of Richard Dreyfuss' character, Roy Neary in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", Spielberg's movie.

You see in him someone who has this implanted vision, and he is really possessed by that. He can't escape it, he's obsessed with it, and he is absolutely compelled to try and do something to express it.

He really struggles with that tremendously, and in the process of that, basically destroys his middle class family, the stability of his life, his job, and destroys his home.

But finally, out of that process, he is able to realize this vision of what turns out to be Devil's Tower. But, you can look at that as sculpture, and a sculpture is an attempt to render a particular vision.

Douglas Eby: But, he was certainly angry throughout the process of struggling with this vision. Do you think that was an inherent part of the possession?

Stephen Diamond: Well, I think in that particular case, not so much. He was angry about not being fully in charge of himself, so that fueled part of it. But, the bigger part of that was just this sense that there was something in him that needed to be expressed, and he was very frustrated about it, and that's where the anger comes in as well. He could not figure out what it was.

Douglas Eby: Yes.

Stephen Diamond: It's exasperating.

Douglas Eby: Very. But, in terms of the therapeutic process for creative artists dealing with anger, as you've said, it's not a matter of suppressing or managing anger in a popular sense. It's not that people have to 'get rid of their anger' to be healthy.

Stephen Diamond: Quite the opposite. People need to be able to acknowledge their anger to get healthy. And, again part of the creative process is being able to harness the power of the daimonic, specifically, if we're talking about anger and rage.

Anger and rage are forms of energy and very powerful. To really be able to harness that power and use it in the act of creativity, to inform one's character, to motivate, to aggressively pursue one's art.

Douglas Eby: And, that sounds like that would hold true for anyone, artist or non-artist.

Stephen Diamond: I think it does. Artists are caricatures, if you will, of the creative process in the extreme. But, all people are creative and have the potentiality for creativity. And so, in life in general, one needs one's anger or rage in order to aggressively pursue one's goals, and to create a life. It's typically involved in the kind of life one wants and pursues, and is able to construct for one's self, and that's a creative process onto itself.

Douglas Eby: An actor I know, a woman, made a really startling statement about finding anger to be fuel for her work. I was really struck by that, but it's been affirmed by what you've been saying.

Stephen Diamond: That makes sense. It's a very volatile fuel though.

Douglas Eby: Yes, potentially destructive.

Stephen Diamond: Well, it can go either way. It's like working with high explosives. You have to handle it carefully, and you have to know what you're doing with it. It's not something for the dilettante.

Douglas Eby: To get to another example of a creative artist dealing with that, you mentioned something in your Psychology Today blog article, "Secrets of Psychotherapy Part 6: Fate, Destiny and Responsibility" about Beethoven, who was physically and emotionally abused as a boy, extremely introverted and frustrated by his unfortunate childhood circumstances.

He became more and more angry and withdrawn from the world, but was able to switch out of that.

Stephen Diamond: Right. He's an excellent example of what we were just talking about, the use of anger or rage constructively and creatively in life.

What happened with Beethoven was that he was abused, abandoned, and his father was an alcoholic. He was neglected as a boy. He had a lot of things to be angry and frustrated about. And, as he became an adolescent, he was a pretty belligerent character and very withdrawn from the world.

Douglas Eby: And depressed for a time.

Stephen Diamond: Well, he may have been depressed. But, what happened was he was very frustrated with this career. He was, obviously, somebody who had talent, and he was not really able to make any kind of breakthrough, which is such a common story. I hear this as a psychologist from actors and actresses, and other creative artists about how frustrating it can be to break into the business, to try to get known and be appreciated.

And so, that can be extremely frustrating, and along with that frustration comes a lot of anger, naturally. Finally Beethoven did start to make some progress in his career. He was starting to work. His music was being heard, and it was selling some. He was starting to be appreciated. This was when he was in his late 20's, maybe around 27. And then, he got the news from his physician that he was going deaf. Irony of ironies for someone like this.

His first reaction to that was rage, and this is how people feel in such situations. How could this be? It's anger against fate, and anger against God sometimes. How could this happen to me? Why me? How could life be so unfair? And so, this is another source of anger for people when things like this happen. Unfortunately, tragic things happen all the time to everyone to some extent.

And so, he was initially very angry, but then he quickly became depressed. For about six months, he just really licked his wounds in a way and withdrew. After six months, his anger came back and he said, I'm not going to accept this. I'm not going to be defeated by fate.

"I will take Fate by the throat", I believe was the quote from him.

Essentially what he was saying was I'll accept this because I have no choice. I'm going deaf, and there's nothing I can do about it. But, I'm not going to let it keep me from my destiny. He believed his destiny was to write great music, to compose great music, and this is exactly what he went ahead and did.

From that point on, to the age of 57, when he died, he wrote his best music and his most beautiful music - a lot of it after he was completely deaf.

So, this is a fine example of an artist who took his anger and used it to overcome fate, and to overcome a huge obstacle that was placed in front of him, and to pursue his career.

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Transcript continued in part 2.

Listen to the podcast interview at Inner Talent Interviews.

Douglas Eby: But, is it simply a matter of making a choice about one's fate?

Stephen Diamond: I believe so. In his case, I believe that's exactly what it came down to. I believe it was an existential choice that he made. Again, he was able to use the anger to realize that choice, to fuel that choice.

Douglas Eby: Rather than being self-destructive.

Stephen Diamond: Exactly. In a lot of cases, if that happened to someone else, they could easily fall into depression and despair for a much longer time than six months, and become an alcoholic or a drug addict, engage in all sorts of self-destructive behaviors, or feel sorry for themselves. It would be understandable.

Now, sometimes people will say to me, yeah, but that was Beethoven. Yeah, it was Beethoven, but he was a human being. It has to do with, as you put it, an existential choice that we all must make regarding our fate and our destiny.

Douglas Eby: Do you work with that sort of choice with clients?

Stephen Diamond: Yes, very much so. This is one of the things in the new book that I'm trying to get across to a general audience. These are some of the essential issues that are important in psychotherapy to address.

Douglas Eby: Maybe to elaborate a little more on the example of an actor, say a relatively new actor starting who hasn't made a name for themselves, and is feeling really frustrated by not being able to work as much as they want.

Stephen Diamond: A very common situation, unfortunately.

Douglas Eby: Which no doubt brings out a lot of anger and frustration.

Stephen Diamond: And discouragement.

Douglas Eby: And discouragement. So, what in that situation allows a shift for them? Can someone shift from a negative, self-destructive form of anger to a more positive and fueling kind of energy?

Stephen Diamond: A motivating energy. It can be done. It's precisely what needs to be done, and again, this is what we try to help people do. We try to help them redirect that energy into constructive activity.

And so, sure you're angry and frustrated. The question is what are your choices at this point? What is it that you really want to do? And then, how can you use your passion and your anger to help you accomplish that in some way?

And sometimes, that might mean using anger to motivate the person to try something new and different that they haven't done, to take some chance that they haven't taken before, to throw caution to the wind about something, to not be as conservative about something, or to fully commit themselves.

Douglas Eby: Take a creative risk.

Stephen Diamond: Exactly, to fully commit themselves and not hold back in any way in trying something different that is in the direction that they want to go.

Douglas Eby: You've mentioned Beethoven as an example of someone with not only anger, but also depression, for at least a period of his life.

Stephen Diamond: And, I just want to mention with Beethoven, you can hear a lot of that anger in his music, which tends to be bombastic, and also heroic. There's a lot of passion. There's a lot of 'daimonic' in it. There's a lot of that anger that comes through.

Douglas Eby: Referring to depression, Dr. Eric Maisel writes about the vulnerability of creative people to depression, and their need for making meaning in their life and work to counteract existential drought or depression. Do you find that with people you work with? How does meaning enter into this?

Stephen Diamond: Well, meaning is something a little bit different. Viktor Frankl, the Viennese existential psychiatrist, spent a couple of years in concentration camps, and wrote a great little book called "Man's Search for Meaning", which I highly recommend. He talked about what he called the 'will to meaning', that there's a fundamental, instinctual need that human beings have for meaning.

Carl Jung felt very much the same way about meaning. He placed an emphasis on that in his analytical psychology.

So, what I write about is the fact that the frustration of the 'will to meaning', the frustration to find meaning in life can also be a source of anger and rage, and that can lead to depression. That can lead to, again, being angry at life, angry at the world, angry at God, and lead to a form of nihilism, and a kind of existential despair and despondency.

Also, if anger is chronically repressed, and if the person doesn't really deal with that anger, that's another way of thinking about depression. It's a state of chronic repression of the 'daimonic', or of anger and rage, specifically. And, I want to say on the side of depression that depression can also be seen as a forced period of introversion in artists.

It's kind of an incubation period, a gestation period where the unconscious is really processing things and digesting things. There is this new, creative idea that is gestating in the individual, and it requires sometimes this kind of withdrawal from the world - again, what I called a 'forced introversion'.

So, my point is I don't want to glorify depression in any way. Depression is a very serious mental disorder and very dangerous, but, if you think about bipolar disorder, it's well-known that there are many creative artists, over the centuries, who could easily be diagnosed, posthumously, as having suffered from what we now call bipolar disorder. They would go through these periods of incubation and introversion, and then have bursts of creativity.

Douglas Eby: So, it isn't necessarily a pathology that should be immediately medicated away. As you said, it's a serious illness, or can be a serious illness that needs dealing with.

Stephen Diamond: It needs to be addressed. Now, how we address it, that's another question. Sometimes we can help the individual find - and it doesn't have to be an artist, obviously, anyone can get depressed - meaning in what they're going through, archetypally speaking.

It's also related to the 'nekyia', which refers to the night sea journey into the unconscious or underworld. In theological terms, it can be likened to the 'dark night of the soul'.

And, Jung himself went through something very much like this, and it went on for a very long time, a number of years in his case. It has been referred to as his 'creative illness.'

Douglas Eby: Very interesting. Well, just to finish up here, in another blog article of yours, "Secrets of Psychotherapy Part 3: What's Your Psychological Type", you refer to a close relationship between shyness and introversion, which as you pointed out, Jung felt is largely an innate tendency.

Stephen Diamond: The concepts of introversion and extraversion come directly from Jung. These were his ideas, his terms and his concepts.

Douglas Eby: Do think creative people, many of whom are introverted, have some mental health threats in not gaining a balance between introversion and extraversion?

Stephen Diamond: I think anyone, whether they're a creative artist or not, is at risk when they are imbalanced in personality, and imbalanced in terms of introversion and extraversion.

We all have some measure of introversion and extraversion; it's on a continuum. But, when introversion becomes extreme that can be problematical. Then the person can basically get stuck in the unconscious, and stuck within themselves. They are so immersed in their inner reality that they're no longer able to deal with the outer world.

And so, that can be problematical. Again, some rhythm, like we were talking about before, is OK - moving back and forth. You can move back and forth between the two poles. But, staying stuck in extreme introversion, then you're looking at some potentially very pathological conditions: schizoid personality disorder, psychotic disorders of various kinds. So, depression, as I just mentioned is potentially dangerous.

And of course, extreme and unrelenting extraversion can also be problematical. There's no contact anymore with the inner life, with the inner world. Everything is about the exterior world and the outer world. All the energy is invested that way, but one loses touch with one's self in that sense.

Douglas Eby: Well, you've covered a lot territory here in a short time. Is there a last comment you'd care to make, especially about how people can better engage with their 'daimonic' or 'shadow' side?

Stephen Diamond: As you've said, we've covered a lot of ground. I think the important thing is for people, whether they're artists or just creative, average people, to be aware of what they're feeling, and to recognize that if they are angry that is not necessarily a pathological indicator. It means something. They're angry about something, and they may have every right to feel angry about something.

So, it's important to try and understand what they're angry about, and also make use of that anger - make some kind of constructive use of that anger.

I think that would generally be a precept for any of us to not run away from it, but rather to confront it, and see whether we can make good use of it.

Douglas Eby: Well, that's a good point to end on. Thank you very much.

Stephen Diamond: You're very welcome. It was a pleasure talking with you.

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To listen to the podcast interview, go to Inner Talent Interviews.

Dr. Diamond’s Psychology Today blog: Evil Deeds - A Forensic Psychologist on Anger, Madness and Destructive Behavior

Dr. Diamond’s website

Article: In Praise of Perfectionism, by Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D.

Earlier interview (text) with Dr. Diamond: The Psychology of Creativity: redeeming our inner demons

Books:

Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic: The Psychological Genesis of Violence, Evil, and Creativity, by Stephen A. Diamond.

Spirituality and Psychological Health, by Richard H. Cox et al.

The Courage to Create, by Rollo May.

Meeting the Shadow, by Connie Zweig, Jeremiah Abrams.

Some related Talent Development Resources pages:

Anger

The Shadow Self

Meaning and Purpose