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On Anger and Creativity
- By Stephen Diamond
- Published 08/15/2008
- Creativity enhancement , Depth psychology
Stephen Diamond
Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D. is a clinical and forensic psychologist. He is the founder of the Center for Existential Depth Psychology, and author of the book Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic: The Psychological Genesis of Violence, Evil, and Creativity.
View all articles by Stephen Diamond
Douglas Eby: But, is it simply a matter of making a choice about one's fate?
Stephen Diamond: I believe so. In his case, I believe that's exactly what it came down to. I believe it was an existential choice that he made. Again, he was able to use the anger to realize that choice, to fuel that choice.
Douglas Eby: Rather than being self-destructive.
Stephen Diamond: Exactly. In a lot of cases, if that happened to someone else, they could easily fall into depression and despair for a much longer time than six months, and become an alcoholic or a drug addict, engage in all sorts of self-destructive behaviors, or feel sorry for themselves. It would be understandable.
Now, sometimes people will say to me, yeah, but that was Beethoven. Yeah, it was Beethoven, but he was a human being. It has to do with, as you put it, an existential choice that we all must make regarding our fate and our destiny.
Douglas Eby: Do you work with that sort of choice with clients?
Stephen Diamond: Yes, very much so. This is one of the things in the new book that I'm trying to get across to a general audience. These are some of the essential issues that are important in psychotherapy to address.
Douglas Eby: Maybe to elaborate a little more on the example of an actor, say a relatively new actor starting who hasn't made a name for themselves, and is feeling really frustrated by not being able to work as much as they want.
Stephen Diamond: A very common situation, unfortunately.
Douglas Eby: Which no doubt brings out a lot of anger and frustration.
Stephen Diamond: And discouragement.
Douglas Eby: And discouragement. So, what in that situation allows a shift for them? Can someone shift from a negative, self-destructive form of anger to a more positive and fueling kind of energy?
Stephen Diamond: A motivating energy. It can be done. It's precisely what needs to be done, and again, this is what we try to help people do. We try to help them redirect that energy into constructive activity.
And so, sure you're angry and frustrated. The question is what are your choices at this point? What is it that you really want to do? And then, how can you use your passion and your anger to help you accomplish that in some way?
And sometimes, that might mean using anger to motivate the person to try something new and different that they haven't done, to take some chance that they haven't taken before, to throw caution to the wind about something, to not be as conservative about something, or to fully commit themselves.
Douglas Eby: Take a creative risk.
Stephen Diamond: Exactly, to fully commit themselves and not hold back in any way in trying something different that is in the direction that they want to go.
Douglas Eby: You've mentioned Beethoven as an example of someone with not only anger, but also depression, for at least a period of his life.
Stephen Diamond: And, I just want to mention with Beethoven, you can hear a lot of that anger in his music, which tends to be bombastic, and also heroic. There's a lot of passion. There's a lot of 'daimonic' in it. There's a lot of that anger that comes through.
Douglas Eby: Referring to depression, Dr. Eric Maisel writes about the vulnerability of creative people to depression, and their need for making meaning in their life and work to counteract existential drought or depression. Do you find that with people you work with? How does meaning enter into this?
Stephen Diamond: Well, meaning is something a little bit different. Viktor Frankl, the Viennese existential psychiatrist, spent a couple of years in concentration camps, and wrote a great little book called "Man's Search for Meaning", which I highly recommend. He talked about what he called the 'will to meaning', that there's a fundamental, instinctual need that human beings have for meaning.
Carl Jung felt very much the same way about meaning. He placed an emphasis on that in his analytical psychology.
So, what I write about is the fact that the frustration of the 'will to meaning', the frustration to find meaning in life can also be a source of anger and rage, and that can lead to depression. That can lead to, again, being angry at life, angry at the world, angry at God, and lead to a form of nihilism, and a kind of existential despair and despondency.
Also, if anger is chronically repressed, and if the person doesn't really deal with that anger, that's another way of thinking about depression. It's a state of chronic repression of the 'daimonic', or of anger and rage, specifically. And, I want to say on the side of depression that depression can also be seen as a forced period of introversion in artists.
It's kind of an incubation period, a gestation period where the unconscious is really processing things and digesting things. There is this new, creative idea that is gestating in the individual, and it requires sometimes this kind of withdrawal from the world - again, what I called a 'forced introversion'.
So, my point is I don't want to glorify depression in any way. Depression is a very serious mental disorder and very dangerous, but, if you think about bipolar disorder, it's well-known that there are many creative artists, over the centuries, who could easily be diagnosed, posthumously, as having suffered from what we now call bipolar disorder. They would go through these periods of incubation and introversion, and then have bursts of creativity.
Douglas Eby: So, it isn't necessarily a pathology that should be immediately medicated away. As you said, it's a serious illness, or can be a serious illness that needs dealing with.
Stephen Diamond: It needs to be addressed. Now, how we address it, that's another question. Sometimes we can help the individual find - and it doesn't have to be an artist, obviously, anyone can get depressed - meaning in what they're going through, archetypally speaking.
It's also related to the 'nekyia', which refers to the night sea journey into the unconscious or underworld. In theological terms, it can be likened to the 'dark night of the soul'.
And, Jung himself went through something very much like this, and it went on for a very long time, a number of years in his case. It has been referred to as his 'creative illness.'
Douglas Eby: Very interesting. Well, just to finish up here, in another blog article of yours, "Secrets of Psychotherapy Part 3: What's Your Psychological Type", you refer to a close relationship between shyness and introversion, which as you pointed out, Jung felt is largely an innate tendency.
Stephen Diamond: The concepts of introversion and extraversion come directly from Jung. These were his ideas, his terms and his concepts.
Douglas Eby: Do think creative people, many of whom are introverted, have some mental health threats in not gaining a balance between introversion and extraversion?
Stephen Diamond: I think anyone, whether they're a creative artist or not, is at risk when they are imbalanced in personality, and imbalanced in terms of introversion and extraversion.
We all have some measure of introversion and extraversion; it's on a continuum. But, when introversion becomes extreme that can be problematical. Then the person can basically get stuck in the unconscious, and stuck within themselves. They are so immersed in their inner reality that they're no longer able to deal with the outer world.
And so, that can be problematical. Again, some rhythm, like we were talking about before, is OK - moving back and forth. You can move back and forth between the two poles. But, staying stuck in extreme introversion, then you're looking at some potentially very pathological conditions: schizoid personality disorder, psychotic disorders of various kinds. So, depression, as I just mentioned is potentially dangerous.
And of course, extreme and unrelenting extraversion can also be problematical. There's no contact anymore with the inner life, with the inner world. Everything is about the exterior world and the outer world. All the energy is invested that way, but one loses touch with one's self in that sense.
Douglas Eby: Well, you've covered a lot territory here in a short time. Is there a last comment you'd care to make, especially about how people can better engage with their 'daimonic' or 'shadow' side?
Stephen Diamond: As you've said, we've covered a lot of ground. I think the important thing is for people, whether they're artists or just creative, average people, to be aware of what they're feeling, and to recognize that if they are angry that is not necessarily a pathological indicator. It means something. They're angry about something, and they may have every right to feel angry about something.
So, it's important to try and understand what they're angry about, and also make use of that anger - make some kind of constructive use of that anger.
I think that would generally be a precept for any of us to not run away from it, but rather to confront it, and see whether we can make good use of it.
Douglas Eby: Well, that's a good point to end on. Thank you very much.
Stephen Diamond: You're very welcome. It was a pleasure talking with you.
~ ~ ~
To listen to the podcast interview, go to Inner Talent Interviews.
Stephen Diamond: I believe so. In his case, I believe that's exactly what it came down to. I believe it was an existential choice that he made. Again, he was able to use the anger to realize that choice, to fuel that choice.
Douglas Eby: Rather than being self-destructive.
Stephen Diamond: Exactly. In a lot of cases, if that happened to someone else, they could easily fall into depression and despair for a much longer time than six months, and become an alcoholic or a drug addict, engage in all sorts of self-destructive behaviors, or feel sorry for themselves. It would be understandable.
Now, sometimes people will say to me, yeah, but that was Beethoven. Yeah, it was Beethoven, but he was a human being. It has to do with, as you put it, an existential choice that we all must make regarding our fate and our destiny.
Douglas Eby: Do you work with that sort of choice with clients?
Stephen Diamond: Yes, very much so. This is one of the things in the new book that I'm trying to get across to a general audience. These are some of the essential issues that are important in psychotherapy to address.
Douglas Eby: Maybe to elaborate a little more on the example of an actor, say a relatively new actor starting who hasn't made a name for themselves, and is feeling really frustrated by not being able to work as much as they want.Stephen Diamond: A very common situation, unfortunately.
Douglas Eby: Which no doubt brings out a lot of anger and frustration.
Stephen Diamond: And discouragement.
Douglas Eby: And discouragement. So, what in that situation allows a shift for them? Can someone shift from a negative, self-destructive form of anger to a more positive and fueling kind of energy?
Stephen Diamond: A motivating energy. It can be done. It's precisely what needs to be done, and again, this is what we try to help people do. We try to help them redirect that energy into constructive activity.
And so, sure you're angry and frustrated. The question is what are your choices at this point? What is it that you really want to do? And then, how can you use your passion and your anger to help you accomplish that in some way?
And sometimes, that might mean using anger to motivate the person to try something new and different that they haven't done, to take some chance that they haven't taken before, to throw caution to the wind about something, to not be as conservative about something, or to fully commit themselves.
Douglas Eby: Take a creative risk.
Stephen Diamond: Exactly, to fully commit themselves and not hold back in any way in trying something different that is in the direction that they want to go.
Douglas Eby: You've mentioned Beethoven as an example of someone with not only anger, but also depression, for at least a period of his life.
Stephen Diamond: And, I just want to mention with Beethoven, you can hear a lot of that anger in his music, which tends to be bombastic, and also heroic. There's a lot of passion. There's a lot of 'daimonic' in it. There's a lot of that anger that comes through.
Douglas Eby: Referring to depression, Dr. Eric Maisel writes about the vulnerability of creative people to depression, and their need for making meaning in their life and work to counteract existential drought or depression. Do you find that with people you work with? How does meaning enter into this?
Stephen Diamond: Well, meaning is something a little bit different. Viktor Frankl, the Viennese existential psychiatrist, spent a couple of years in concentration camps, and wrote a great little book called "Man's Search for Meaning", which I highly recommend. He talked about what he called the 'will to meaning', that there's a fundamental, instinctual need that human beings have for meaning.
Carl Jung felt very much the same way about meaning. He placed an emphasis on that in his analytical psychology.
So, what I write about is the fact that the frustration of the 'will to meaning', the frustration to find meaning in life can also be a source of anger and rage, and that can lead to depression. That can lead to, again, being angry at life, angry at the world, angry at God, and lead to a form of nihilism, and a kind of existential despair and despondency.
Also, if anger is chronically repressed, and if the person doesn't really deal with that anger, that's another way of thinking about depression. It's a state of chronic repression of the 'daimonic', or of anger and rage, specifically. And, I want to say on the side of depression that depression can also be seen as a forced period of introversion in artists.
It's kind of an incubation period, a gestation period where the unconscious is really processing things and digesting things. There is this new, creative idea that is gestating in the individual, and it requires sometimes this kind of withdrawal from the world - again, what I called a 'forced introversion'.
So, my point is I don't want to glorify depression in any way. Depression is a very serious mental disorder and very dangerous, but, if you think about bipolar disorder, it's well-known that there are many creative artists, over the centuries, who could easily be diagnosed, posthumously, as having suffered from what we now call bipolar disorder. They would go through these periods of incubation and introversion, and then have bursts of creativity.
Douglas Eby: So, it isn't necessarily a pathology that should be immediately medicated away. As you said, it's a serious illness, or can be a serious illness that needs dealing with.
Stephen Diamond: It needs to be addressed. Now, how we address it, that's another question. Sometimes we can help the individual find - and it doesn't have to be an artist, obviously, anyone can get depressed - meaning in what they're going through, archetypally speaking.
It's also related to the 'nekyia', which refers to the night sea journey into the unconscious or underworld. In theological terms, it can be likened to the 'dark night of the soul'. And, Jung himself went through something very much like this, and it went on for a very long time, a number of years in his case. It has been referred to as his 'creative illness.'
Douglas Eby: Very interesting. Well, just to finish up here, in another blog article of yours, "Secrets of Psychotherapy Part 3: What's Your Psychological Type", you refer to a close relationship between shyness and introversion, which as you pointed out, Jung felt is largely an innate tendency.
Stephen Diamond: The concepts of introversion and extraversion come directly from Jung. These were his ideas, his terms and his concepts.
Douglas Eby: Do think creative people, many of whom are introverted, have some mental health threats in not gaining a balance between introversion and extraversion?
Stephen Diamond: I think anyone, whether they're a creative artist or not, is at risk when they are imbalanced in personality, and imbalanced in terms of introversion and extraversion.
We all have some measure of introversion and extraversion; it's on a continuum. But, when introversion becomes extreme that can be problematical. Then the person can basically get stuck in the unconscious, and stuck within themselves. They are so immersed in their inner reality that they're no longer able to deal with the outer world.
And so, that can be problematical. Again, some rhythm, like we were talking about before, is OK - moving back and forth. You can move back and forth between the two poles. But, staying stuck in extreme introversion, then you're looking at some potentially very pathological conditions: schizoid personality disorder, psychotic disorders of various kinds. So, depression, as I just mentioned is potentially dangerous.
And of course, extreme and unrelenting extraversion can also be problematical. There's no contact anymore with the inner life, with the inner world. Everything is about the exterior world and the outer world. All the energy is invested that way, but one loses touch with one's self in that sense.
Douglas Eby: Well, you've covered a lot territory here in a short time. Is there a last comment you'd care to make, especially about how people can better engage with their 'daimonic' or 'shadow' side?
Stephen Diamond: As you've said, we've covered a lot of ground. I think the important thing is for people, whether they're artists or just creative, average people, to be aware of what they're feeling, and to recognize that if they are angry that is not necessarily a pathological indicator. It means something. They're angry about something, and they may have every right to feel angry about something.
So, it's important to try and understand what they're angry about, and also make use of that anger - make some kind of constructive use of that anger.
I think that would generally be a precept for any of us to not run away from it, but rather to confront it, and see whether we can make good use of it.
Douglas Eby: Well, that's a good point to end on. Thank you very much.
Stephen Diamond: You're very welcome. It was a pleasure talking with you.
~ ~ ~
To listen to the podcast interview, go to Inner Talent Interviews.
Dr. Diamond’s Psychology Today blog: Evil Deeds - A Forensic Psychologist on Anger, Madness and Destructive Behavior
Dr. Diamond’s website
Article: In Praise of Perfectionism, by Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D.
Earlier interview (text) with Dr. Diamond: The Psychology of Creativity: redeeming our inner demons
Books:
Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic: The Psychological Genesis of Violence, Evil, and Creativity, by Stephen A. Diamond.
Spirituality and Psychological Health, by Richard H. Cox et al.
The Courage to Create, by Rollo May.
Meeting the Shadow, by Connie Zweig, Jeremiah Abrams.
Some related Talent Development Resources pages: